Forever

Everyone wants to live forever, but why do they want to do it in this dirty, depressing world?

What other option is there?

I don't know.  Maybe there's something more, something we can't see, something besides all of this.

Not this again.

Is it really so hard to believe?  Centuries ago people had no knowledge of so many things that we take for granted today.  Maybe there is still more we have yet to discover.

Yes, but you're talking about some sort of spiritual world on another plane of existence.  All the scientific knowledge we've uncovered can be explained by science.  You can't use our growing scientific knowledge to say it's possible there's some non-scientific knowledge we have yet to discover.

First of all, it doesn't have to be a fully spiritual world as you put it.  And even if it is "spiritual" maybe there is something physical, something scientific to it.  Maybe we just don't have the tools to observe it, maybe we never will.  Maybe everything does link back to something physical, but it's so intertwined so deeply connected that there are even today things we know to be true that we can't link to physics quite so easily.

Like what?

Like emotions.  I say something mean to someone and they cry.  Why is that?  We know it happens, we know it has something to do with the brain.  Can you explain it in great detail, they physical process that makes that happen?

No, but I suppose there is probably someone who can, or at least will be one day.

Sure.  And I'm not saying that no one could ever understand this other world, this something more that there might be, I'm just saying that we don't, in our limited current state.  Just like you don't understand the physics of emotion, you also don't understand what more could be out there.  Our knowledge is so limited that we don't even know what we don't know.

None of this is proving anything.  You can postulate all you want that there is something better than this world.  Anyone can say there could be something more that they can't detect or explain.  You could never conclude whether they are right or wrong because the very nature of their claim is that it can't be proven.

I never said anything about proof.  Just about possibility.

Exactly, and I'm saying that's not good enough for me.  Anything is possible in a sense, but our world is based on logic.  You could say it's possible the sun will explode tomorrow, but due to our observations of the universe so far, I can say that it's so unlikely as to be practically impossible.

I understand everything you're saying.  It appeals to me even.  I want to understand everything.  I want there to be a logic explanation to it all.  I want to be able to say "this is" and "this isn't".  Sometimes though, the evidence is inconclusive.  I'm not asking you to blindly believe something that makes no sense.  There is a certain sense, some degree of evidence, for this possibility of something more.

What evidence?

Well, I admit, most of it isn't the hard physical evidence that you're probably looking for.  Some of it is the very complexity of this world, broken though it is.  Sure, it makes some sense that it would arise naturally, but other times I wonder if that's really all there is to it:  random chance and happenstance.  What makes us even aware of all the complexity?  Why is that even necessary to our survival?  Is there something more prompting us, guiding us to seek more knowledge about the world?  Why do we know so much and yet so little?  I know you'll say that doesn't prove anything.

It doesn't.

But it makes you think.  Or at least it makes me think.

Okay fine, whatever.  You can marvel at the world and wonder if there might be some higher power that had a hand in putting it together all you want.  I choose not to buy into any of that and I don't see how you can hope to change my mind.

I'm not trying to change your mind.  I don't even know where my own mind stands on the issue.  It's just interesting and makes me wonder.  It makes lots of other people wonder, too.

So?

So, there are lots of people who have felt something more.  Not just crazy people, but normal otherwise rational people, too.  They've felt a sense of something greater.  They've found peace from it, even.  Yes, I suppose they could just be imagining it all, but what if they aren't?  And so what if they are?

Well, if they are, they're believing in a lie.  They're delusional and wasting they're life on a fantasy.

Ah, but if this life is all we have, and it's so tiny, so finite, what does it really matter if we waste it?

What do you mean what does it matter?  Of course it matters!  If this life is the only thing we have, we have to make the most of it!  We have to live, love, enjoy it, make it better for others.  We fight to preserve this life.  It's what we do.  It's in our nature!  It's how we survive.

But it's all so small and sad.  Don't you want there to be something more?

Well, I suppose, maybe that would be nice.  But wanting something doesn't make it true.

And fearing something doesn't make it untrue.

What is it you think I'm afraid of?

I don't know.  That's between you, and well, if there's really nothing more, just you.

What's that supposed to mean?

You believe that what you can observe, or at least what you could hope to one day observe, is all there is, right?

Yes.

So what if there is something you could one day hope to observe that you're just completely ignoring and that thing is the most important thing of all and you just don't realize it, even though other people are trying to tell you that they are convinced it exists, you just ignore them because you haven't seen it for yourself.

I feel like we're going in circles.  Didn't we already talk about all this proof and evidence crap?

Sort-of, but I'm trying to approach it from a slightly different angle.  Now this thing that these other people tell you exists, it's a good thing, a wonderful thing, a thing that makes life better, both now and for what they call eternity.  But you don't believe there is an eternity and based on that, you don't buy into anything else they're saying.

Yeah.  It all just sounds ridiculous to me.

Right.  But what if you're wrong?

Then I'm wrong.  But I know I'm not.

But how do you know that?

Well, I mean, I haven't seen it.

Do you think that there is anything in this would that you've never seen and yet it exists?

Of course there is!  I have a very limited scope and view.  There are tons of things that exist that I've never seen.

So why can't this other thing, this being or entity, or even just the concept of eternity be one of those things?

Because it doesn't make sense!

It doesn't?  Why do the other things you believe exist but have never seen make sense?

Because other people have seen those things!  There's proof and data to back them up!

Okay, do you believe it's possible there are things that no one has seen that could yet exist.

Yes, I suppose...

Why can't this be one of those things?

We went over this already!  There's no physical aspect, nothing to see, because it doesn't exist!

But people have felt it, observed it.  You are just going to throw that out entirely because you haven't observed it personally?

Whatever you're talking about is supposedly eternal and infinite.  If it's so infinite, if it's everywhere, wouldn't everyone sense it?

Maybe, maybe not.  That's a fair objection, but I don't think it's at all conclusive.

None of this is conclusive!

Okay, well, I think we have mostly gone in a circle now, though that's not what I intended.  Let's get back to what I was trying to say before.

Okay fine.  Whatever.

I'm not trying to upset you.  I'm trying to have a thoughtful and intelligent conversations.

Yeah I know.  It just seems so...

So what?

I don't know.  Ridiculous?

I don't think it's that ridiculous, but even if it is, there are plenty of other ridiculous things in this world.

Okay.  Fair enough, I suppose.  What were you really trying to say before?

I just wanted to raise a thought, and this is not really my own, I got it from someone else mind you, but what is it really that makes us so resistant to believing there is something more to this existence?

I don't know.  Because the evidence indicates this is all there is?

I've already expressed my thought that there is evidence to the contrary.  I'm not talking about that anymore.  I'm just wondering from a deeper intellectual level, what's the harm in believing there's something more?

I told you before, it's a waste of time.  A waste of energy and resources.

But is it really?  Sure, the belief itself might turn out to be a waste, but a belief in something more should really prompt people to help one another, at least that's what I've seen.  This greater power, this something more, is usually kind and loving and is meant to bring out the best in people.  So if there is something out there, even if it's not really out there, that does give people extra motivation to help one another, isn't it worth it for them to believe in that thing, to draw on its power, whether real or imaginary, to make this world a better place?

That sounds nice, but it sounds like you're okay with people believing a lie that way.

Well, I do want people to know what is true.  I don't want to intentionally deceive people.  But I think we can agree that this is an area where opinions vary.  You can't prove it one way or the other, I think we've established that.  But if people are convinced of this something more and it serves to make the world a better place even if it doesn't actually exist, why should we deter them.

I suppose you're right.  There's no harm in believing in something that ultimately leads you to make life better for others, as long as your belief doesn't end up hurting others in the end.  But what if this belief does end up hurting others in the end?  And what about those who don't share the belief?

Well, it seems like if the belief is carried out in it's true spirit, it won't hurt anyone.  And I admit, those who don't share the belief may have to suffer some annoyance from those who do believe it.

Much as I am suffering from you.

And I do apologize for that.  But that leads into my next thought.  If those people who believe in this greater power are really right, isn't it worth some minor annoyances from them if they are ultimately able to bring people to this "something more" along with them?

But if they're wrong, the annoyances are just annoyances and were a total waste of time.

We don't have that much time anyway.

Which is why we should make the most of every moment!

And isn't that what they're trying to do?

In their own misguided way.

But what if it's not misguided?  What if they actually do understand and know something that you and I don't?  What if there really is more to this life and they have the key?  Isn't it worth wasting a little of our time now if there's a possibility of something greater than you could ever imagine, and more than that, something both greater and eternal?

If I could be convinced of it, and if my conviction it was right, it would totally be worth it.  But I don't think I could ever be convinced of it.

But don't you want to be convinced of it, and don't you want it to be right?  Wouldn't it be wonderful if it were true?

I suppose it would be.  But how can we know one way or the other?

We can't.

Exactly.  And I want to know.

Why is knowing so important?  Why can't believing be enough?

I don't know.

Well, I suppose that says it all.

I don't think I feel like thinking about this anymore right now.

That's okay.  I'll still be around tomorrow, at least I believe I will based on probability and prior observations.

Ha ha.

I wasn't trying to be funny.

You're really starting to believe in some of this, aren't you?  This forever stuff?

I think maybe I am.

I never would have thought you would.

I think there are lots of things no one would have thought of.